Toni Ford, TELSPAN International Inc. Offering "customized multimedia solutions," TELSPAN is a technology-applications company providing kiosk design, installation and maintenance; electronic A/V info system-design; and video teleconferencing system design. Corporate clients include AT&T, CBS Records, Loral, Sprint and Johns Hopkins University. Revenues in 1995 were $2 million with 30 employees. Before beginning TELSPAN, Ms. Ford had a governmental career (1971-84) that included three Senate confirmations. A black Republican descended from slaves and prospecting among the techies, Ford in her transcript melds a wide array of perspectives. Birthyear 1941, Phone (301) 731-5355, HQ Landover (MD).

PART ONE: Family Lineage and Upbringing

Frank Gregorsky: Who are your mentors, and how did you find them?

Toni Ford: To answer that question properly, I have to explain some history. Since slavery, we are from Ninety-Six, South Carolina. But we have been in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, since the late 1800s. Okay? And Philadelphia blacks are different, historically. Books have been written about them as tradesmen, etc. etc., and my family's a significant part of that. Though not "educated," they were tailors, grocers -- one was a candy-store keeper, another a barbershop owner. And, as we got older, as you recall, those kind of skills began to be looked down upon.

FG: Oh yeah. Around 1910 everything changed. The craftsman and the artisan, the very image of success in America, shifted toward [large institutions and] credentials --

Ford: It did shift, and my family didn't get those credentials. But they kept this other part. So there they were, and along comes this kid, who gives them a real shot. Around a table that included my great-grandmother, they would talk: "Now what are we gonna do with the child?" That's how I was referred to -- "the child."

FG: You were a project!

Ford: Exactly, exactly. I came from this incredibly supportive environment that was very mixed -- black and white, but even the whites were different. Philadelphia is an extremely ethnic area, like Chicago. There was a black community, and [the people in it] really didn't want to live in the Italian community, though you might want to go over there and eat their food, 'cause it was great. Separate from the Jewish, the Polish, etc. And this was a strength -- because you had pride in your own communities. You went to the others, but you respected the differences. Not like [some parts of] New York where you got beat up if you went there, but still very much an ethnic community. Also, with that in mind, I was reared as a Catholic -- that tells you something [smiling] -- with both parents, plus grandparents and aunts and everybody else. I also went to Jesuit school and Catholic college, okay? I came out of undergraduate school in '63 [as things were] just beginning to bubble. I went thru the '60s as quite modest and conservative, but focused. Those things [they now call] "back to basics" -- good grades, if you dress nice, speak well, that would get you over [the hurdles] -- and I did all those things. And my friends were a mixed bag -- it wasn't [a case of] all-black. At school, I was always in the minority. At the college I went to, there was one African-American per class. I didn't think to say, "Well, how come there are no more?" For the time, that college was rather expensive, very exclusive, and very very elitist. Their way of bringing something additional was to offer scholarships to African-Americans (and also to Filipinos). You had just enough so that it was "nice" -- no waves made. I didn't think about it as a negative, because I didn't know anything different.

FG: That means you headed for college in 1959?

Ford: Um-hmm.

FG: Colin Powell made the point last fall, referring to his years at Fort Benning, about the black experience in the late '50s. Don't throw a brick, don't hold a press conference; instead, try twice as hard, and don't let it get it to you.

Ford: Exactly, exactly. And that's how we were acculturated.

FG: The family plus the Catholicism is a double sort of firmament.

Ford: Exactly, uh-huh. With all of that, there is no way we had to worry about mentors. Or role models. We had it all. Maybe we didn't know what exactly to do with it, but we did what we thought was right. That's why I can't answer your question directly. No one told us to look outside of yourself and your family to get these people. If you met good people, you met good people. If not, you still had to keep going.

PART TWO: Rely On Family, Avoid The Poison

Ford: I've done a lot of different things -- which might sound impressive. But if you look at it as an entrepreneur, male or female, they rarely hold jobs very long, because they get frustrated. At one point in time, I worked for a major corporation. Back home at "corporate ranch," I had a lot of supporters, but -- day to day, getting thru the grind -- I was insulted incredibly. One time a man slammed the door in my face 'cause he wasn't going to talk any "nigger bitch." How ignorant could he be? But, had I lashed back at him, I would've looked worse. And, if I said nothing, it would look like I couldn't take care of myself. You're compromised in so many ways. In a personal sense, I wanted to make sure that I didn't become Old, Mean, Hateful and Ugly -- just like the things I faced.

FG: To not absorb what they were trying to radiate into you.

Ford: Exactly, exactly. My grandmother was still alive -- but I was losing some of those supporters. So I had to be very, very sharp. And I'm not alone or unique. If you talk to most people -- of my age, certainly -- you'll get similar stories... A lot of people have been very valuable to me -- but I would call them mentors more than role models. I didn't know any women who went into Oceanography. I didn't even know I wanted to do it -- but I had an experience whereby I was led in that direction, and "hey, why not?" Having been taught that I was a really valuable specimen, I didn't fear things. I'm still an optimist. But "role models"? Black women invent themselves. They do. They have to.

FG: Still?

Ford: Still, darling. They have to do what is necessary to get where they want to be. There are certain things you will not do, and you must know what those are, and know when one faces you.

[Example of declining to produce pornographic videos despite being "extremely needy" early in the company's life. "There was a tremendous market and I could've made a fortune quickly. I looked at myself and I looked at those issues, and I personally -- my principles -- could not take me there." So she went back to the would-be client: "I hear your opportunity, but I decline."]

FG: You're being very skeptical of this project's question about "role models." They don't have to be people in your immediate circumstance -- mentors do, but role models don't. You have to be able to talk to a mentor, but a role model could be a movie star, or someone out of history (in my case, Abraham Lincoln). You maintain, even if we widen the scope to this extent, black women still have a shortage of role models?

Ford: Maybe not today. But we never called them "role models." For example, I have an aunt -- the one that owned the hairdresser -- and she would tell me things. This example is so funny, but I remember it. I must've been maybe 15 when she said: "If you want a fur coat, get it before you get a mortgage -- 'cause after you get a mortgage, you can't buy anything!" [Laughter] But I did that -- I got a fur coat before I got a mortgage. It was the fact that she owned her own business, and she was so smart. Not that I wanted to "be like her," it was just [vital for me, growing up] to know there were people like that.

PART THREE: Science, Art and Corporate Culture

Ford: But we also -- "we" [meaning] people of that time and era -- are people of two generations. You were taught to think independently, you were taught to reason -- to analyze. Those are not qualities you see very much today.

FG: Right.

Ford: And we didn't have computers.

FG: Let's go back to that "critical thinking" point, because part of this study has turned out to be generational. In the 1940s and '50s, America's parents reacted against authoritarianism -- communism and fascism -- and therefore many of us, from all different economic levels and races -- were raised to be individualists. To not say "yes sir, no sir," right off the bat. In the '60s, when we started becoming adults, we couldn't work that well together -- but we all knew "who we were." This generation was so different from [adults in] the '30s and '40s, when they all worked together to beat the Nazis, or build the suburbs.

Ford: Levittown! [Laughter]

FG: Yep. And so by 1975 this society was unrecognizable, versus 1950 or '55, and a lot of that has to do with the child-rearing.

Ford: Um-hmm. I love hearing you say that, because sometimes I think I'm imagining it. And today, when you build a company, who do you hire? People who are quite different from you. If our generation had not had the grounding [in diversity], we wouldn't know how to interact as well, and to make this work. It doesn't make the [subsequent generation] bad, it just makes them so different. I assume it's my responsibility to tear away the onion skins -- because they don't know how. One of this company's real strengths, Frank, is that actively, aggressively, and with purpose, I have created the most diverse environment I have ever worked in. We have here about 30 employees -- I don't have the demographics handy right now, but it's almost 52% African-American female, 48% Anglo male. We have an Asian man, and an African-American man -- but no Anglo women. That was not a numbers name, it is how it came up.

FG: Anglo women tend to underrepresent themselves in the tech world -- that's what I'm finding.

Ford: In this environment, what is incredibly challenging -- I used to say it was the male/female thing, but I don't think so any more. It's what you've said. We have very creative people -- and we have engineers.

FG: Meaning those are two distinctly different types.

Ford: Right brain, left brain!

FG: Good, yes -- I love it.

Ford: I had a natural proclivity for the arts. (A personal evaluation, done when I started the company, would later confirm this.) So I wanted to major in art. But my father said, "God gave you that gift, you go get you something that'll help you get a job." So I majored in science. I went into Oceanography. Why? Because it was the prettiest science, okay? But I ended up very comfortable with both sides of my brain -- left and right. What do founders do? They create [an enterprise and a culture] in their own image and likeness. And what do we have in here [at TELSPAN]? We have engineers who are tuba players -- we do! We also have creative people who are "techno-nerds." This is an environment where right and left brain -- creators and engineers -- get along well. Often they also care about each other.

[At TELSPAN, employees bake cakes for each other depending on whose birthday is closest to whose. What if the recipient, probably a left-brain type, is highly introverted? "They can eat their cake alone in their office!" Also, notes Ford, "Our health-insurance rates are low, or at least we got a reduction in them. Why? Because the people -- I can name you four -- come in here about 7 in the morning to do exercise, because it's okay!"]

PART FOUR: Financing and Motivation

FG: What are the two or three ways you funded TELSPAN in the early years?

Ford: The big one for me was barter -- trading services with other little companies. The other was [by instituting] "pay points" -- I create a video, and the "point" comes where the client has to review it. So I would ask for a third when we accepted the project, a third when we gave you a rough cut, and a third when we finished. That gave me the cash to do it. Other things, today, may seem silly, but they never were. I never bought rubber bands, and I never bought paper clips. Whenever your mail is delivered, rubber bands are around it -- you're being given rubber bands six days a week. Why do I need to buy 'em? Everything people send you, they paper clip. So why buy paper clips? I can recall, in my checkbook, trying to see if I had $14 to buy a pencil sharpener. And so those "habits" are passed on to the first employees -- and we still don't buy rubber bands.

FG: The saying is "don't sweat the little things." That's true when you can't control the little things. But if you can control the little things, it makes a lot of sense to "sweat" them.

Ford: I'm not an accountant. But, when my accountant began talking about overhead and G&A [general and administrative costs], I was very comfortable.

FG: Why did you start this company? And what -- besides sheer momentum or general pressure -- can make you run flat-out for long stretches, i.e. weeks running into months, these days?

Ford: I always said, and have lived by it for these 10 years, that money is not my first objective. I am doing what I want to do. Because of that, I am arrogant and confident -- I'm also scared, which is the part that women can admit to. But I have tremendous resources, and by that I mean support. If I shut these doors, today or tomorrow, I haven't failed -- I just didn't finish. In my family, that's worse than failing. If you fail, you at least tried. If you didn't finish, it means you didn't do your job. When we start doing our [performance] evaluations around here, I say, "Let's see what you have finished." A lot of times, people are in the wrong place: Square peg in round hole, okay? That we can work around; that we can handle. What I can't handle is if you start something and you don't finish it, and you don't even know why you didn't finish it. That means you're a dilettante. Nothing wrong with being a dilettante -- if that's what the situation calls for.

FG: In that case, they should go be a reporter.

Ford: [Laughter] I did not say that, I don't know...

Even today, in this company, the most difficult challenge for a new employee is to understand that my directness does not diminish them. I only mean what I say. Niceness is not weakness -- and it's you on the petard if you interpret it that way. I might smile all day, but don't take it as weakness.

FG: Have you always felt, even back in your twenties, that you had a good sense of humor?

Ford: Oh I have a good sense of humor, yeah. And it comes from the fact that I take things very seriously -- once I'm committed to them. But I don't take myself seriously if it's just, you know -- you gotta have fun somewhere.

Ford: Does it take you awhile to get committed? Do you take your time getting committed?

FG: Yeah, um-hmm. But I'm very intuitive. If it's about my business, I won't make a snap judgment. If it's about my husband or my family, I won't make a snap judgment. If it's whether or not to take off this Friday to go skiing, I might...

I had a job once, and this job required a cameraman, because it was a video production. My cameraman didn't show up. So I hoisted that darn camera and said heck, "All I gotta do is stand still and point" [laughter]. And one of the people was somewhat berating me. They had no idea I owned the company or anything. But I was, "Okay, sure, no problem -- you got it." One of the things we have learned here is, if you want to see a male -- you get to see a male. My ego does not require that you only deal with me. Particularly in marketing our company, we do that very effectively. Even today, there are places I can't get as quickly as an Anglo male can get. So we create the best team for the situation. They don't want to see me? At this point in my life, I don't care. We do good work, and get paid for it -- that's where I am.

PART FIVE: Affirmative Action and Job-Creation

[Gregorsky recounts his version of this issue during 1995 and how GOPers backed off when professional women's groups, around June, said this wasn't only a class and race issue but also a gender concern. They said: "We need Affirmative Action in these large companies to deal with the Glass Ceiling..." Soon after, Speaker Gingrich said he wouldn't support a straight abolition of federal efforts...]

Ford: That probably was a turning point -- because, if you look at the positive effects of Affirmative Action programs, those people who have benefited most are white women.

FG: Numerically, they show more beneficiaries.

Ford: Also on a percentage basis. In addition, it seems to me what frequently gets lost in the outtake is how -- if you look at voting patterns -- African-American women vote more than even Anglo men. They have the highest [turnout] of any group. But we lose the impact of that, because no one really focuses on it.

FG: I've studied elections since I was in high school, and I have never heard that.

Ford: I'm referring to turnout -- among black women, vis-a-vis white men, white women, black men. You lead with black women. Now, how do they utilize that power, what do they do with it? That's where it gets dissipated.

FG: This goes back to the point you made [in a different context]: Even 30 years ago, it was easier for black women to get thru the door.

Ford: Exactly, exactly.

FG: I think I know why that is, but -- spell it out for me.

Ford: Well, my evidence is anecdotal, from my experience-base. I think it's easier because we are perceived as non-threatening. And why is that? Who do we threaten? When you look at the numbers, we come out at the bottom of everything.

FG: Not on income.

Ford: Not on income -- but that's probably because we have two jobs at least. At the same time, when you look at the accomplishments, when you look at what African-American women have done, it's incredible. In other words, I don't want to be a spokesperson for the negative side of black women. But, between the negative things we have to tolerate, or have had to try and get around, versus what we have accomplished, I think we are a very, very special group -- tremendously resourceful.

FG: Then what is the national obligation on Affirmative Action programs?

Ford: I believe we should, very definitely and unequivocally, have and support Affirmative Action -- in business, education, a number of areas. I might be different from most women you interview, because I've had some incredibly good and valuable experiences. I have my moments of anger, and I can be cynical about some things, but I have benefitted from Affirmative Action -- significantly enough to understand you do need it. At the same time, I think that, if not properly structured, it can be tremendously destructive.

FG: To who?

Ford: To the recipients. For example, the 8(a) program: What is wrong with a program that allows companies to rise to [become] multimillion-dollar institutions -- and then fail miserably once they come off that program? Something must be incredibly wrong.

FG: What do you think it is?

Ford: Businesses not being built to be compatible from the beginning. Even though it has taken me longer to grow this company than if it were 8(a) fed -- it's much more solid. It's real. This is one of the best things to happen to me.

FG: Because you had to face many more real market tests.

Ford: Oh, gosh yes. The 8(a) work has been valuable but it represents less than 1% of my revenues.

FG: But are you saying that companies using 8(a) have had their standards set low, and therefore they learn the wrong lesson [about what the marketplace really requires]?

Ford: That may be a part of it. A bigger part is that people do business with people they know. People do business with people they want to do business with.

FG: The Japanese say, "Business is all relationships."

Ford: Business is all relationships. And the value of Affirmative Action can come in several forms. If a major corporation, or a non-minority business, understands that a percentage of its work must be allocated to small companies, it becomes vital for the small company and the other one to get to know each other -- because if [the relationship progresses] on the basis of the equality of the work, then they'll get there. The way you achieve this is by giving the major corporations an incentive to work with companies. If it's just based on numbers, it'll work for awhile -- but ultimately they'll walk away. Lately, when you hear major corporations say they won't give up their programs regardless of what the feds do -- because those programs have demonstrated the value -- this tells me they have gotten to know people and organizations, and that's the value.

FG: They've made diversity profitable.

Ford: Exactly. And we have to understand how the culture we live in [is always one of] profitability. When this is taken out of the requirement for small business, or minority-owned businesses -- meaning, if they get the contract because they're minority -- then they will have to leverage [the new relationship] to make sure quality is also in the mix. Plenty of companies have.

[Discussion of Hillary Rodham Clinton and Elizabeth Dole. Because of the former's travail, the latter is "being an acceptable role model for a candidate's wife." In real life, though, "she's powerful and sharp, she's got all the southern charm and the smarts... She's fabulous, and she's the one who should be running." Ford agrees with FG that, if Dole becomes President, the media "will go thru the Hillary cycle all over again." Then again, Mrs. Dole is a better political operator than Hillary -- and so, if being herself "means compromising Dole's role, I don't think so."]

FG: What are some of the things you would like to see the federal government do, or not do, to help job-creation?

Ford: You're talking with a person who really -- if she could get the zealots out of the way -- would be a perfect Republican. Because I really don't want the government to do anything but leave me alone. Leave me alone, and don't let people bother me on the basis of non-related things, like my gender or my ethnicity.

FG: Now see, if Phil Gramm were sitting here, he say, "You're right, Toni, and that's why I'm against Affirmative Action." So you gotta be careful with that [libertarian] rhetoric.

Ford: Okay, that's fair -- alright. "But you're missing my point, Mr. Gramm. My point is: Affirmative Action requires just that -- do something not for me or not to me, do something to make certain I am not blocked from taking care of myself." Okay? You don't have to come in and say, "Now help this poor girl 'cause she can't make it without you." But you can say, "Leave her alone, because she's tryin' to get there." Not even, "You must hire her." Because, after all, I may not even want to work there -- so that's not the point. But don't [let someone stop] me from getting a job if I want it and I can do it -- just because they haven't taken the time to see what I can do.

FG: Any other federal recommendations?

Ford: It's not necessarily federal government, but it can be very valid to support the creation of job-skills for those who work with their hands. Be supportive of those efforts -- and they may be small plants. I start from the premise that people do want to work, and they do want to be productive. If that's the case, be supportive of those efforts that create that. But I don't have any great plan for how the government can better itself. In my own life, I have reached the point where -- if it really got too bad -- I could find myself an island and go off and sip something warm and cooling. Well, that's somewhat of a throwaway line -- I probably would never do it.

ADDENDUM (answered in longhand during mark-up)

FG: In Greensburg, PA, the Seton Hill College "National Education Center for Women In Business" holds one-week summer camps for girls age 12 to 18. To attend them, the girls must have shown an interest in business, somehow -- been recommended by someone -- so the instructors and visiting speakers are not dealing with a random bunch of teens. In a pep talk, what major messages would you try to impress on them?

Ford:

(1) Find God in yourself and love her madly.

(2) Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises.

(3) Do not wish to be anything but what you are -- and try to be that perfectly.

(4) Make no little plans, because they have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans, aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will not die.

(5) The only good luck many great people ever had was being born with the ability and determination to overcome bad luck.

(6) If you are going to run with the big dogs, you have to get off the porch.

Related Links:

• Discovery Institute
• Joint Economic Committee
• Women Business-Owners in Post-Corporate America